Episode 42: Chelsea Larsson, Zendesk - Tactics to advocate for content design

Kristina Halvorson:

Hello and welcome to the Content Strategy Podcast. I’m your host, Kristina Halvorson, and every episode of this podcast I chat to established leaders and exciting new voices exploring our ever-evolving field of content strategy. We cover all the topics that inform how we shape digital content. From user experience design to customer experience, accessibility to content design and everything in between.

Hello, friends. Welcome back to the Content Strategy podcast. It's me, Kristina. Here in Brain Traffic's headquarters, it is all Button all the time right now, our content design conference that is happening virtually coming up October 20th through 22nd. Because it is a virtual conference, tickets are still available and you can find them at buttonconf.com. There, I did my little promo at the beginning of the podcast. Everybody's been asking me to do that regularly and I keep forgetting, but there it is because it's all I'm thinking about. It's going to be an amazing event.

One of the fantastic keynote speakers that we're going to be hearing from at Button this year is long-time Confab and Button favorite, Chelsea Larsson, who is here with me. I'm going to read Chelsea's bio for you, Chelsea Larsson leads the UX content strategy team at Zendesk. She is a UX writing enthusiast, has illustrated comics for the New York Times, and believes that Harry Potter marathons can cure most ailments.

Hey, Chelsea.

Chelsea Larsson:

Hi. Obviously, I wrote that pre-COVID because Harry Potter cannot cure that.

Kristina Halvorson:

Harry potter and a good double jab will get you good, right?

Chelsea Larsson:

Yeah, exactly. 

Kristina Halvorson:

You just got like a special combo happening right now.

Chelsea Larsson:

Right, got to get the combo meal.

Kristina Halvorson:

So I was glancing over your bio just before we started recording and I let out a veritable squeal of delight because I had no idea that your comics and your illustrations have been in the New York Times. What's that all about? When did that happen?

Chelsea Larsson:

Yeah, so gosh, that was maybe last year, I believe. I had a couple of cartoons in NYT Parenting. I do a lot of comics about my life as a mom and the funny and weird parts about it, and I pitched NYT Parenting. And I got it, sold a couple to them and it's been an awesome journey seeing them there.

Kristina Halvorson:

Stop having so many talents, like now. That's impossible.

Chelsea Larsson:

I will, I promise as of right now.

Kristina Halvorson:

Well, and you have been since... I think it was your first lightning talk at Confab, didn't you hand illustrate your slides for that as well?

Chelsea Larsson:

I had a couple of mine, but I used some of our illustrations from Zendesk at that time, but then I hand illustrated my whole talk for Button last year.

Kristina Halvorson:

You sure did.

Chelsea Larsson:

Yes.

Kristina Halvorson:

Oh, great. I'll just say while we're on the topic of this before we dig into all things content strategy, if you're interested in seeing Chelsea's outstanding illustrations, you can find them, and we will post the link in the podcast description as well, at chelsealarssonart.com. There's some good stuff, there's picture books. You're a magical being of light, my friend.

Chelsea Larsson:

Thank you.

Kristina Halvorson:

So, okay, illustrating content, fancy person at Zendesk, talk to me about your content strategy journey, when did it begin?

Chelsea Larsson:

Oh, wow. Well, you played a big part of it. So, but let me rewind to a million years ago when I was in grad school, I actually have a master's degree in landscape architecture. So I came out to San Francisco with the intent to build parks to help people, and give a better quality of life. Then I realized that most landscape architects out here were working on building roof gardens for tech billionaires, or working on parking lots in China. I quickly lost interest in the profession. Not only that, but it's also a really hard job, so shout out to all the landscape architects out there who are doing good work.

I was a designer by trade, but at the same time, I was a freelance writer. I was writing food reviews for The Onion. I had some freelance clients out in the Bay. I was writing for magazines. I saw this opportunity to use my words and my design thinking together, but I didn't know how. So I spent a little bit of time in the wonderful world of content marketing, which led me to attending Confab where I did the content.... I think it was Content Marketing 101 intensive with you.

Kristina Halvorson:

That's content strategy, Chelsea.

Chelsea Larsson:

So I mean it's content strategy, yes.

Kristina Halvorson:

Points docked. Just kidding.

Chelsea Larsson:

This is the whole point.

Kristina Halvorson:

I know. I have to say that when people who are in content marketing stumble into Confab, they're like, “This was not the party I meant to go to. I am in the wrong frat house." But then they settle in and they're delighted that they're there, you were a case in point.

Chelsea Larsson:

Yes. I was like, "I've finally found the party I've been trying to go to for years." So you were talking about this new thing to me, new to me, content strategy, and all of the pieces fell into place because I could use design thinking, I could write, I could do it all in one job instead of having to have a side hustle. And so I went back to Zendesk, I was working at Zendesk at the time, and told Monica, my manager, "I'm going to be a content strategist now." And she was like, "Okay."

At that time I was working on the blog writing long form articles. I kind of switched into looking at the user experience for our blog, and I led a redesign of the blog doing all of the tree testing, card sorting, all of the things that content strategists do. It was amazing and I loved it. And then I realized I wanted to do more of it, so I started doing a little side hustle for the Zendesk product writing. But at that time they did not have a role for me full time. So I did a little brief sojourn at Facebook and worked as a content designer at Facebook. And then Zendesk opened up a role for me to build a content design team because once I left, they kind of realized the vacuum that was there.

Kristina Halvorson:

That's the thing, once they get a taste of the content strategy, when you leave, they were like, "Oh, we didn't know."

Chelsea Larsson:

Yeah, they really were and that was about two and a half years ago, and so I started out as a team of one at Zendesk for the first year. Then I got an amazing woman named Christine Tancinco, and we were a team of two. And now the team is going to be 12.

Kristina Halvorson:

Oh, gosh.

Chelsea Larsson:

So yeah, we're growing. We're growing a practice and it's just awesome. I love what I do.

Kristina Halvorson:

And you're growing a practice during a pandemic that will never, ever quit, I guess.

Chelsea Larsson:

Right.

Kristina Halvorson:

Yeah. How's that? What has that been like?

Chelsea Larsson:

So that has been such a challenge because I was an IC, an Individual Contributor, as I told you, just two years ago. So I went from being an IC to a manager and now a director who's building out this whole organization, and in a pandemic. So not only am I learning how to do the regular manager director type of stuff, I'm also learning how to do it all remotely. The biggest challenges we have right now are keeping the team connected when they've never ever met each other in real life, and keeping them connected to their design partners, and building team culture across this little square that we live in called Zoom, which is really hard. And then hiring people that I've never met and I have no idea when I will meet. I've hired about six folks, I think, since the pandemic started and I don't even know how tall they are, like so, so strange.

Kristina Halvorson:

I was just laughing because I also hired somebody, and the first time they walked through the door, I was like, "You're six feet tall." And she looked like this tiny little thing on the screen, I was like, "You are not tiny."

What a surreal experience we're all having, and it's like all being crammed into the last 18 months of insanity during which time you also had a child.

Chelsea Larsson:

Right. So I had a pandemic baby and he is one and a half now. And I'm not the only one on my team who has gone through some big thing. The other thing is everyone is still going through life and also balancing work responsibilities and balancing the pandemic. So the emotional support that is necessary as a leader to buoy your team is also something that I'm learning how to do, but it's such a challenge. Yeah, I don't know how you do it with your team.

Kristina Halvorson:

My team would have words about that, whether or not I do it in the first place.

I'm making a significant investment in an HR consultant who has come in a couple of times now and done full day sessions to basically try to repair things. My team and I have worked together for a decade so we know each other inside and out, and we work in-person best. I think just now is not the time to cut corners when it comes to bringing in outside resources for help and support. I mean, I tell people that individually too like, "What do you mean you don't have a therapist? Go get a therapist."

Chelsea Larsson:

Oh, yeah.

Kristina Halvorson:

Because this is not just learning how to manage like it was five years ago. How are you getting that support? How are you getting that guidance? Where are you finding your inspiration and support right now?

Chelsea Larsson:

Yeah, good question. There are people at work, obviously, that I admire, and so I tend to try to get mentorship from the leaders at Zendesk who are doing a really stellar job. But as a content design leader, I'm the only one at Zendesk who does this. It's a new practice, and so there's really no mentor in that area for me to learn from. We're not like Facebook with 800 content designers, we don't have that luxury. They have swept the globe. They have everyone.

Kristina Halvorson:

They have. I was just talking to Erin Scime, who's one of our Buttons speakers from Facebook today.

Chelsea Larsson:

Right. I worked with Erin at Facebook.

Kristina Halvorson:

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I've known Erin through content strategy. And she was just like, "Blah, blah, blah, largest content design team in the world, blah, blah, blah."

Chelsea Larsson:

Definitely.

Kristina Halvorson:

And I said, "Yeah, you hired everybody I know, that's why."

Chelsea Larsson:

Yeah. I know. 

Kristina Halvorson:

Except for you, Chelsea. Except for you.

Chelsea Larsson:

Well, I was there for four and a half months.

Kristina Halvorson:

Exactly. Everybody had to do their time.

Chelsea Larsson:

Yeah. But so actually just very recently, me and a woman named Valerie, who is a content design leader at Slack, we hosted a small gathering of other managers from across the world. We had Shopify folks and Chris Baty from Figma. And just basically I went on LinkedIn and typed in content design manager and just kind of cold-called anybody, and was like, "Hey, do you want to come and hang out?"

Kristina Halvorson:

That was exactly how I did the very first content strategy consortium, I went to LinkedIn and typed in content strategists, and there were 18 people that popped up. And I was like, you're all on my list." Isn't that funny?

Chelsea Larsson:

Exactly.

Kristina Halvorson:

Yeah.

Chelsea Larsson:

Yeah. We just had our first get together and it was so illuminating to hear that even though we're all in these completely different companies, we're all going through almost the exact same challenges, and to hear about how other content design, specifically leaders, are dealing with those challenges, really made my week. And so we're definitely going to meet again, but that is how I am getting that mentorship. It's more about peer mentorship at this time in my career.

Kristina Halvorson:

That's outstanding. We have talked a lot about the power of cohorts and the power of communities of practice over the last several years, and I just think it's incredible that you were able to show leadership amongst all the other things that you're doing to say, "Hey, this is needed." And it can be just as easy now as hopping on a Zoom call and just even being able to just stare at each other and go, "You see me. You really see me.", is so powerful.

Chelsea Larsson:

Yeah. Well, I definitely have to give a shout out to Valerie Ross at Slack because she is my partner in crime in that effort.

Kristina Halvorson:

That's outstanding. So tell me a little bit then about how your practice at Zendesk is shaking out, where do you all sit within the organization, what are the roles and accountability that you see within your team?

Chelsea Larsson:

I will happily tell you about that because it has evolved every single year, and I think we're finally at a good place. So the first year it was just me and I wanted to leave a good impression, and so I thought that that meant saying yes to everything, which is not recommended.

Kristina Halvorson:

That is a very content strategist thing of you to do.

Chelsea Larsson:

Yeah. So the first year I set up a Slack channel, which was basically a request channel and anybody who needed help could come to it, and I did it all. And I got super burnt out, and I almost quit my job. So the next year when I had a hire, me and Christine kind of tamped down the requests a little bit, and we started a hybrid model where the content designers, us, were embedded in specific teams, and we promised 80% of our time to those teams. And then we left a little bit, 20% of the time, for that channel to answer requests. We did that for a little bit, maybe another year where we added about two or three more folks. And at that time we realized that those requests were turning into larger, what we called partnership projects, instead of a consultant project.

So we realized very quickly, well, a year into it, which was quick to us, that this consultancy model just had to go completely. So at this time we are a fully federated embedded partnership model where each content designer is paired with about three product designers. They live and breathe that part of the product. But then we have a centralized culture. So we have about four content design meetings a week. One is a critique. One is where we go over our Jira board. One is just a fun thing called Coffee and Content where we just do something as a team. And then one is just like an end of week check-in. So we keep the culture life centrally, but they're embedded. And I kind of say, "You go out to work in product design and then you come home to content design, and that's where you can kind of feel safe and just talk about your week and learn your practice. And then you go out and show everybody your stuff."

That model has been working really well for two reasons. One, the content designers get fully embedded. So they have all of the context they need to do the work that they need to do with their partners. And they also have the support from their teams essentially. And then two, the teams that don't have a content designer are very clearly different in their content. There is a stark difference between a product designer who is supported by a content designer and a product designer who's writing their own content. And that difference makes it easier for me to advocate for head count to get more content designers. When we were kind of peanut buttering ourselves across the product, it wasn't obvious to leadership why we needed content designers, cause everybody was getting a little bit of content design. But once you took that away, it was really clear that they needed support. So that is why this model is working.

Kristina Halvorson:

That is brilliant. When you say this really gave me what I needed to be able to demonstrate the need for more headcount, how do you package that up? Do you just get on a call with somebody for half an hour and say, "Hey, look, I want to show you how much better this thing is over here, then this thing over here that didn't get content design." How do you build that case very tactically?

Chelsea Larsson:

There's a couple of tactics. But one is, we do weekly design reviews. They're supposed to be weekly, but they happen regularly. And I mean, in those reviews, the leadership will be like, "What's up with this content? And then the product designer is like, "We don't have a content partner." So that alone is a really good-

Kristina Halvorson:

It just happens organically.

Chelsea Larsson:

That has been the best one. And then PMs, so Product Managers and Product Design Managers telling their leadership that they need content help, that is what's really catapulted our headcount endeavors forward. It's not as successful when I'm saying it because they're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, you just want more people on your team." And I'm like, "No, your people want more people on their teams." So yeah, getting them just to speak on it.

And the way that I've done that is I actually have this Google form that I send to folks when they ask me if they can have a content design partner. I say like, "Hey, I would love to supply you with one, I don't have the budget for this. Here's a link to a Google form where you can answer some questions about what this person would be working on, how it would improve your workflow, and what quarter you need it, and why it's important to the business?" And I take that information, it all just populates in a spreadsheet. And then I use that at the end of the quarter when we go through our headcount requests. So that's been really helpful too.

Kristina Halvorson:

This is both inspiring and disheartening because the fact that you have to put other people between yourself and leadership almost to just be like, "Go, you go tell them. You go tell them. They won't listen to me."

Chelsea Larsson:

I know.

Kristina Halvorson:

It's not because of you. I just think that, that is a thing we have seen play out over the years, that people don't know what they're missing until they get a little bit of it. And then when it's gone, they're like, "Oh, wait, my life was so much better when that person was on my team."

Chelsea Larsson:

Right.

Kristina Halvorson:

It's fantastic that you're able to stir up interest and support. Also that you've created these very specific mechanisms for helping people articulate, document, and get those needs in front of leadership, kind of so you don't have to.

Chelsea Larsson:

I just quickly realized that if I'm always advocating for myself, it undermines everything else that I'm doing, because I'm just kind of this squeaky wheel. So I just figured I'll just have other people advocate for us and they can be the squeakers.

Kristina Halvorson:

What's really interesting about that is, it puts this new lens on the idea of self-advocacy because isn't that... I say this, I swear, every single episode, the number one question I get asked is how do I advocate for the work that I'm doing, for the need, for more content strategy resources, more content design. And we have the, "Do the roadshow, do the readouts, make sure that people you work with are sort of banging the drum on your behalf." But even more so, you've actually put a system and a workflow around getting other people to advocate for your services. I mean, that's awesome.

Chelsea Larsson:

Thanks. Yeah. There's something called the trust equation and I'm going to butcher it because I don't have it in front of me, but just Google it, folks. Okay, here, I found it. So it's like trust equals credibility, reliability, and intimacy. And that's basically, credibility your dependability or the good work that you're doing. Reliability is the dependability. And intimacy is kind of how you show up. But it's divided over your self-orientation. And so if you're always oriented to like, "Me, me, me. What I need, what I need." It actually undermines all the trust that you're building. And that, when I found out about this... Actually, Alicia Dougherty-wold who's an amazing content design... Yes, you know her.

Kristina Halvorson:

Yes.

Chelsea Larsson:

She's at Facebook.

Kristina Halvorson:

Yes.

Chelsea Larsson:

She introduced this to me. When she told me about this, it just completely changed all my tactics and she was totally right, and it completely worked. So yeah, I would highly recommend getting other people to do your advocating for you. The other thing that has worked really well, and this has been much harder, is to get my team facetime with leadership. So I've really been pushing them to co-present with their product designers at these design leadership reviews, because when they do, I always get a ping from a VP or an EVP who says, "Wow, I just saw Marta's IA. That was amazing. I didn't even know your team did IA work." And so just getting them on the same stage and platform as the product designers is another great way to advocate without having to verbally advocate for yourself, just like showing the work out there. So that's also had a huge impact.

Kristina Halvorson:

I want to switch topics just a little bit. When you left Facebook and stepped into this role at Zendesk, did they say, "We want you to help us stand up a team?" Was that the request, was that what you were tasked to do?

Chelsea Larsson:

Kind of a funny story because Kim Lenox, who's my boss, she's awesome. She's a VP of Product Design. She put out an ad, a job description for a UX writer, and I saw it when I was out. And I said, hey, if you change this to senior content strategist... I was a content strategist at the time... I'll come back to Zendesk and I want budget to build a team. And she was like, "Okay."

Kristina Halvorson:

You made demands walking through the door. I love it.

Chelsea Larsson:

Yeah. And she was like, "You won't have budget right away, but show your value, take a year to show your value." Which is why I went bonkers the first year. And so my plan was always to build a team there. So yeah, that's where that came from.

Kristina Halvorson:

Did you know you wanted to be a manager years ago? Was that the career path that you envisioned for yourself?

Chelsea Larsson:

I'm still not sure I want to be a manager.

Kristina Halvorson:

Don't listen, Chelsea's team, la, la, la, la.

Chelsea Larsson:

I love my team, but I feel like I co-lead with them. And my vision is to create content design university at Zendesk. So any content designer who comes through and works with me will leave with like amazing skills, amazing contacts, really rad projects under their belt, and just be a bad-ass content designer when they leave. That's my goal. And I care so deeply about the people on my team, so deeply that I don't feel like I'm their manager, I feel like we are on this mission together to build. We always say like, "We're building the best content design team in the universe." That's our goal together. So, no, I never knew I wanted to be a manager, but I always knew I wanted to build something with people.

Kristina Halvorson:

Chelsea, you're going to be inundated with thousands of LinkedIn requests asking you if you're hiring. Everything that just came out of your mouth is what everybody always wants to hear from a manager or a director, or a leader. It's really cool, and really inspiring, and it really speaks to your values even just around the need for content design, the need for people who care about language, and information presentation, and messaging to sit in the center of that product design experience.

Chelsea Larsson:

I am hiring in Singapore, so if anybody in Singapore is listening, the job opening should be going up on Zendesk this week, so.

Kristina Halvorson:

Will you pay for relocation to Singapore, because I know somebody in Minneapolis who would relocate  to Singapore.

Chelsea Larsson:

Who wants to move to Singapore?

Kristina Halvorson:

I guess I have to check in with my kid's dad, but I'm pretty sure he'd be fine. He'll be fine.

Chelsea Larsson:

Oh man, we are looking for somebody out there. So I will be hiring more though, some day.

Kristina Halvorson:

That's outstanding. This has nothing to do with content design, but speaking of Singapore, when this pandemic settles down, or when we all decide, because this is kind of where I'm coming around to that it's not that it's going to just go away. It's going to be that we learn how to live with it. And we just have to learn how to craft our travel plans, and our conference plans, and everything else, with safety in mind, this is where I am today... I don't know. Where are you going to go? Do you want to travel? Do you want to take your kids and go somewhere?

Chelsea Larsson:

Yeah, I don't want to get that out loud here. I always wanted to... We actually had planned to take our four and a half year old to Italy and Spain when she was two. But that was just right before the pandemic, so we didn't get that. But I really wanted to take my kids to Italy and Spain because when I have traveled there, they are so family friendly and they love little ones. And so I just think it would be really a fun experience. I want to take them to Australia, to the Zendesk office in Melbourne. I want to take them everywhere. I want to get out of here. Yes. It's crazy. I like to travel.

Kristina Halvorson:

I know.I just tweeted something about this last week, last summer, because I have traveled... I recently hit my 50th state, so I've been to all 50 states.

Chelsea Larsson:

Wow.‍

Kristina Halvorson:

I've traveled all over the world. I've been really, really blessed with the work that I've done in content strategy and the conferences I've been able to speak at. But last summer, I was sitting in my backyard and I was like, oh my God, my backyard is amazing. Like I've lived in this house for 10 years and I'm just now buying a hammock. What was I doing? I love being at home. I mean, I just stay at home, I don't need to travel anymore. And now I am just like, I have 72 hours, I think that's enough time to get me to Belize. I think that's good. Let's go.

Chelsea Larsson:

Yeah. I know.

Kristina Halvorson:

It's something else.

Chelsea Larsson:

I recently drove 20 hours to Montana for a family vacation, which was super fun driving them in the car for that long. 

Kristina Halvorson:

No, it wasn't.

Chelsea Larsson:

Yeah. Actually my kids do okay in the car. But yeah, just the driving. And it's just so interesting. I know we're not going to talk politics, but I live in the Bay area, so it's a liberal bubble. And then as soon as you leave all the way to Montana to where my mom lives, which is another liberal city, Lakeside, it is a totally different country. So that's always an interesting experience to drive through the U.S. in that way.

Kristina Halvorson:

I think we've all experienced that a little bit more where we would have gotten on a plane a year and a half ago, and here we're in the car and we're just getting to know our neighbors.

Chelsea Larsson:

Exactly. Yeah.

Kristina Halvorson:

It's good.

Chelsea Larsson:

Yeah, it's good. I mean, I've met a lot of nice folks in that part of the country too, so it's good. It's good to get to know your neighbors. That's for sure.

Kristina Halvorson:

It is. I'm sitting here thinking how do I bring this back around to content designers and product managers, and getting to know your neighbors.

Chelsea Larsson:

Well, I need to tell you a story.

Kristina Halvorson:

Go ahead.

Chelsea Larsson:

I’d like to tell you a story, because when we were in Montana... This has nothing to do with getting to know your neighbors, I'm just telling you this... When we were in Montana, we were hiking and I saw a bear. That was so scary. A black bear walked across the hiking path. And it was like, I don't know, 500 feet away from us maybe.

Kristina Halvorson:

Oh my gosh.

Chelsea Larsson:

And we were all making the big noise you're supposed to make. And then I, in my stupid millennial brain, was like, "I need to take a picture of this." So then I get my phone out, my hand's shaking, and I took this picture of the bear who wasn't looking at me at the moment. But as soon as I took the picture, he looked at me and started walking towards us.

Kristina Halvorson:

Oh, no. No, no, no.

Chelsea Larsson:

But I've never experienced that primordial fear of looking a predator in the eye. And that was a really interesting experience for 2021.

Kristina Halvorson:

I have my own bear stories from 2021, but I think we're almost out of time. Maybe I'll just tweet about them because I've got a really good picture of a bear that was taken from inside a car.

Chelsea Larsson:

Oh, I'll tweet my picture.

Kristina Halvorson:

Oh, yeah. good Okay. All right. Well, for anyone that has hung in with us through the end of this podcast, I know you are laughing and shaking your head, this is what happens when Chelsea and I get together.

Chelsea, back when we were talking about content design, it was really enlightening, and then it was fun. I mean the whole thing's been fun, but now I have to wrap up. Then it just all fell apart, which that's how... Welcome 2021, everybody. 

All right, Chelsea, thank you so much for being here. And we're going to be really excited to hear from you at Button and see some more, I think, of your hand illustrated slides, and so much more.

Chelsea Larsson:

Yep, absolutely.

Kristina Halvorson:

So, thanks so much, we'll see you in a few weeks here.

Chelsea Larsson:

Thank you so much.

Kristina Halvorson:

Alright. Bye.

Thanks so much for joining me for this week’s episode of the Content Strategy Podcast. Our podcast is brought to you by Brain Traffic, a content strategy services and events company. It’s produced by Robert Mills with editing from Bare Value. Our transcripts are from REV.com. You can find all kinds of episodes at contentstrategy.com and you can learn more about Brain Traffic at braintraffic.com. See you soon.